tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.comments2023-03-24T10:34:20.826-04:00Shivvetee Vessels and ShardsAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09096593722008505361noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-38726477164165546012016-11-28T15:08:25.626-05:002016-11-28T15:08:25.626-05:00Chris, you go on to ask:
You say, "There is a...Chris, you go on to ask:<br /><i>You say, "There is a direct, causal relationship between Jew hatred and social/political dysfunction." So, therefore, any sort of 'hatred' would also count towards social collapse? Or is "Jew Hatred" a special case?</i><br /><br />First: "Direct causal relationship." You wisely imply (and give sound examples elsewhere) that the relationship does not fit any causal model that can easily be tested. Thanks for guiding me towards that clarification. I am not trying to build a predictive model here, but rather I'm trying to raise warning flags to people and nations willing to pay attention to themselves.<br />I would posit that Jew hatred is special for a couple of reasons (which I’ll mention in a moment), but that rampant hatred of any sort in a society is debilitating and dysfunctional. Imagine the cultural and economic leap that would occur in the US if racism disappeared suddenly. I don’t just refer to acts of racism towards African Americans, but a disappearance of the psychological impairments and damage that are endemic in a subjugated and oppressed people, and equally endemic (tho different) in the oppressor.<br />Now, in regards to believing Jews are a “special case...” Perhaps part of the situation is that Jews have been dispersed so widely around Europe and the Middle East for such a long time, in a way that no other distinct minority has been. So we have much more evidence, soft tho it may be. And we have the subconscious elevation that Jews are given via the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, and the Koran, as a special and chosen people. Now, in the Christian Bible and the Koran it cuts both ways, and more commonly towards vilification, but still Jewishness is amplified as no other modern ethnicity is. And these religious teachings have shaped culture (and psychology) more directly and with greater impact than any other literature.<br /><br />Let me briefly address your comment that “<i>Newspaper articles aren't academic references.</i>” I use the news as data, exposing events, opinions, and current trends. Thus, when I accuse the Left in England and elsewhere of being riddled with Jew hatred, I provide specific examples. My argument would be “hyperbolic” only if I *didn’t* provide examples. Now, if that data is disallowed in the academic world, then academic thinking is the emptier and more cutoff from reality for it.<br /><br />And finally, let me address your question, “<i>Do you consider yourself to possess any bigoted views?</i>”<br />You're baiting me here. Have you ever openly discussed your own bigotry? But I'm not afraid to speak openly.<br />Yes, I’m full of bigoted thoughts and feelings. I consider it part of the human condition, and those who claim NOT to have bigoted thoughts/feelings live in a world of self-repression and self-dysunderstanding. HOWEVER, I am definitely not happy about my bigotry, and I try to address and manage and compensate for it whenever I feel it. And when I fail in that, I fail to my own shame and my own diminishment. For example, I work hard to strip out any bigotry I might feel towards Muslims when I criticize Arabs and Islam. To the extent that I fail in this, I deserve to be called out and corrected.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096593722008505361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-74294833593609742852016-11-28T15:02:36.846-05:002016-11-28T15:02:36.846-05:00Thanks Chris for your insightful comments. Let me ...Thanks Chris for your insightful comments. Let me respond to the questions you ask of me.<br /><br />You say/ask:<br />Surely anti-semitism and anti-zionism aren't the same thing?<br />I know some British Jews who could be described as anti-zionist, are they anti-semites also?<br /><br />Yes, I believe they are one and the same. Of course, many people think this is a highly contentious statement, especially those people who are guilty of being anti-Zionists, and who don't want to look their own bigotry straight in the face!! But I'm not alone in my accusation. Martin Luther King and the current Pope (both of whom I admire greatly) have made this exact same equation. Hatred of Israel is a modern form of Jew hatred, which is why Alan Dershowitz often calls Israel “the Jew of nations”. Eg, Israel’s vilification in the halls of the UN is no different than the vilification of Jews that was common in Czarist Russia, or that is common in any modern Arab nation.<br /><br />Jews are as susceptible of being anti-Semites as non-Jews, just as Blacks are of being racist (as I note in the essay, re the Tutu example) . This is well documented in psychological literature. And I know it well, personally. I used to hate myself for being a Jew, and thought there was something wrong with me because I was Jewish. Indeed, like alcoholism, one is never cured. One may or may not learn to manage the disease. And indeed, I know *very few* Jews who don’t have a large dollop of self-hatred. Same for Blacks. Same for all vilified minorities. Same for all people. We are highly social beings, deeply influenced by our surroundings, and full of self-hating voices. Some of us listen carefully to ourselves and hear them; many don’t<br /><br />But let me amplify very briefly the equation of anti-Semitism = anti-Zionism. Look at images of BDS rallies or other anti-Zionist rallies. There's *lots* of these images floating around. And you will often see (especially if the camera-person is not trying to be selective in what they show) banners like "death to Israel" and a wide range of other bigoted slogans and images. If an anti-Zionist (who claims not to be a bigot) attends such a rally or supports such a rally in the social media or thru giving of time or money, they cannot disassociate themselves from the hate they are supporting. Yet, those very same people will loudly and persistently claim that Trump is a bigot when he empowers other bigots to act hatefully and violently, even tho Trump himself shrugs it off, "not me, not me". And yet every anti-Zionist I know shrugs it off the same. Trump's a bigot, but not them. You see the hypocrisy? Really, it's quite obvious. I offer this example as just one more detail in a wide body of hypocrisies, lies, and exaggerations that define the anti-Zionist agenda. I am NOT saying Israel is above criticism. But when the criticism is riddled with hypocrisy, lies, and exaggerations, there is bigotry driving it, not just moral outrage.<br /><br />(continued in 2nd comment...)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096593722008505361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-90532864580898609332016-11-28T07:22:14.156-05:002016-11-28T07:22:14.156-05:00Surely anti-semitism and anti-zionism aren't t...Surely anti-semitism and anti-zionism aren't the same thing?<br /><br />I know some British Jews who could be described as anti-zionist, are they anti-semites also? (I've got to a section in the say where you do indeed say something like, i.e. Woody Allen)<br /><br />You say, "There is a direct, causal relationship between Jew hatred and social/political dysfunction." So, therefore, any sort of 'hatred' would also count towards social collapse? Or is "Jew Hatred" a special case?<br /><br />Also, without references you are 'spinning a hyperbolic theory'. Newspaper articles aren't academic references. There is some work in this area, not that I'm familiar with it, but a brief search gives me a list of academic authors 50+ (apologies, there is one academic reference, although there is not the direct connection you make with your 'therefore')<br /><br />I buy into the idea that a hateful bigoted society is one that will self-destruct and collapse, but it seems you'll have to add 'eventually' to that claim, because a number of large powerful nations/empires have existed historically for quite a long time based on hatred and dehumanisation of the other. One could also say that any society will eventually break-down and collapse anyway, due to factors of ongoing change in power structures etc. Perhaps we could say that they collapse faster as they become obsessed by their hatred(s). This seems valid.<br /><br />I would also agree that merely thinking we are a 'liberal' and therefore 'good' society doesn't make it so. This requires us to build and develop relationships from our cultural group with the others that share our society, the definition of being a multicultural society. A cynic would think this impossible, due to humanity's fundamental nature of hatred (i.e. your view) and historically you'd be hard pressed to find many positive examples. Indeed, recent election/referendum results across the world show that our 'liberal' world isn't so equal and friendly after all (as if this were ever in doubt). But, as you say, shaming doesn't make it go away, we'd have to change our own behaviours and effectively 're-wire' our own brain.<br /><br />Possible? Yes. Likely? ...<br /><br />Do you consider yourself to possess any bigoted views?<br /><br />god-free moralshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16607043107377719807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-53440672451154347612016-06-06T23:54:52.088-04:002016-06-06T23:54:52.088-04:00Ira Zukerman Steve, thanks for this. I'm influ...Ira Zukerman Steve, thanks for this. I'm influenced by a Madyamika view, which essentially takes the psychological/physicists view that positing divinity changes it, via the observational effect, so better to leave things be, belief wise. However, pragmatically, where you say: "If we are creating this reality through our thoughts as well as our deeds..." I would agree, and think we should more readily exagerate our thoughts, in the media of religious practice. Rosenberg's Jewish Liturgy as a Spiritual System lays this out somewhat uniquely, and I've given a lot of copies out over the years.Ira Zukermanhttp://jewbu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-75752214641576674152016-04-05T22:52:32.564-04:002016-04-05T22:52:32.564-04:00Dear Pensieve,
I am so pleased by your comments an...Dear Pensieve,<br />I am so pleased by your comments and your enthusiasm. Thank you!!<br />Yes, I realized the comment about prayer was not entirely accurate. Yes, for a very few it may open upper doors; and yes meditation-prayer in its many forms, including the Quaker form, again, for a very few may open doors. But I would suggest it mostly reinforces belief, and reinforces what we already know. This, of course, is not bad, and often is very good, but we have to be careful to differentiate opening the doors from standing outside those doors and asking/begging/hoping for them to open. And perhaps more difficult, when are we opening the doors, and when are we simply imagining we are opening them, imagining what we might see, what we want to see? This is why this is such tricky business. Our own desires are inextricably integrated into our experience, and there is much delusion in them. We change/distort what we see by the very act of observing, and the distortion of our lens is directly related to how much the observation means to us! The more desperately we want to see God, the more significantly we will distort our understanding of what we see, projecting into it what we want, and taking away from it what we don't want, in proportion to our need and desire. Very tricky, indeed.<br />Perhaps we can talk at more length privately. You can contact me at:<br />steve@shivvetee.com<br />All the best.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096593722008505361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-46644864199443051152016-04-05T19:01:23.125-04:002016-04-05T19:01:23.125-04:00Wow, and wow and wow! We need to ~talk~ and talk....Wow, and wow and wow! We need to ~talk~ and talk. This is glorious. My thoughts/responses are tripping over themselves. <br />Just a couple: <br />Re. 3 above, depends what you mean by prayer. Quaker Meeting is straining to hear God's voice. Silent. Listening. The most powerful form of prayer I have experienced. <br /><br />Re. Third, Yes! And yes. (More conversation please.)<br /><br />Re: developmental stages: Totally. I have encountered people from many traditions with whom I've spoken intimately of spirit's presence, of practice, never of dogma. Many religious people aren't at all sure what shape the divine takes, but they know its presence in them, all around them.<br /><br />Finally, Wahhoo!:What an exhilarating meditation. XOXpensieve bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01376726969080587189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-31260233059961644502015-03-25T16:03:47.413-04:002015-03-25T16:03:47.413-04:00Thanks, brom. I'd like to know more about who ...Thanks, brom. I'd like to know more about who you are. Normally, I wouldn't have published your comment, since you have no profile that I can check.<br />One comment on your comment:<br />Genetics don't matter for one reason only: there is absolutely no data that suggests that thoughts and opinions, including religious proclivities, are passed on genetically. Jewish law says that, technically, I am a Jew because my mother was, but that has no scientific or genetic basis. It is simply an opinion elevated to custom/law.<br />Now, our understanding of what a thought is, is very primitive. Perhaps if/when our tools are made substantially more sensitive and subtle, we will then be able to measure whether thoughts, or proclivities towards particular kinds of thoughts, can be transmitted genetically. And if they can, we will likely need to revise our thinking about things like genetic transmission of religious identity. Until then, tho, we must hold that people hold their religious views by their own choice. That choice may be influenced by parents and community and society, but it is not determined by them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096593722008505361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-3757035027393913352015-03-20T15:00:08.247-04:002015-03-20T15:00:08.247-04:00Good post. I'd like to add two points. First, ...Good post. I'd like to add two points. First, genetics don't matter here because any non-Jew can become a Jew if he embraces the Jewish religion. In this sense, there is no difference at all between the notions of a Jewish nation and a Muslim 'ummah', for example. Muslims may hate Jews exactly because they are to them a competing entity. <br />There is also a tradition that the mountain Sinai was called Sinai because sin'ah (hatred) came from it to the world. In our times it is commonly interpreted as a statement about the source of anti-Semitism, however, its original meaning (and Rashi's comment) is more complex. The hatred referred to here is hatred that descended upon the world as a result of Jews' choosing to reject idolatry (rootedness in this very world). Rejecting idolatry became a beginning of a new era, in which people and nations were held up to a much higher standard, religiously and possibly also ethically. Ignoring the monotheism and pledging ignorance was no longer an option. The fear of incongruity or punishment led to emergence of religions like Christianity or Islam but the pent-up frustration (and disappointment over the loss of the supposedly bucolic past) turned into perennial hatred of Jews.bromhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07209088289365707847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-14748623945730605182013-08-27T22:21:12.529-04:002013-08-27T22:21:12.529-04:00This is gorgeous!This is gorgeous!Ilenehttp://besttreadmillforhomes.us/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-32005350121194647702012-03-28T11:45:26.135-04:002012-03-28T11:45:26.135-04:00I think I like Step 5 the best, but regardless, th...I think I like Step 5 the best, but regardless, this was a great illustration of how poetry revising also works:) Sometimes I go too far and have to back up to where I was last satisfied, but other times this type of play gives some unexpected results and an unusual view. Thanks!Mary Saylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08709628386233742459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-85958978078216525882012-03-04T02:53:05.192-05:002012-03-04T02:53:05.192-05:00You are light years ahead of me with your understa...You are light years ahead of me with your understanding of poetry Steve...yet, I feel that you are reaching for an insight that is both true and profound. There is indeed a special brand of European anger at religion (for very justifiable reasons!) that results, as you put it, in a new authority for the human will. This anger does not permeate North American consciousness - indeed when British New Atheists rant in North America - their 'colonial' audiences wonder what all the fuss is about. Do you think this openness to immanence is a latent aspect of our humanity that emerges once we are in a situation where we no longer have to react angrily?Gregory A.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07594424461243351107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-10895114799943720912011-08-30T09:17:53.041-04:002011-08-30T09:17:53.041-04:00Dear Anonymous Commenter: A pity you aren't ca...Dear Anonymous Commenter: A pity you aren't capable of being more articulate and insightful. I'm interested in all critical feedback. However, your comment is really only mean-spirited, and lacks any of the substance of MEANINGFUL dialog.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096593722008505361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-5201098461982055982011-08-30T01:16:55.112-04:002011-08-30T01:16:55.112-04:00Boring and tired. Sad really......Boring and tired. Sad really......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-62950689325242545712010-02-16T00:51:49.019-05:002010-02-16T00:51:49.019-05:00Have you read my "Diaphysics," which cam...Have you read my "Diaphysics," which came out last summer? I think you will find it very interesting. Especially my comment in it that there are no nouns, only verbs.Troy Camplinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-4560042987898180822009-12-20T08:08:08.117-05:002009-12-20T08:08:08.117-05:00Allons !Allons !David van Dusenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453490546013509008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-26545188253748539842009-08-02T23:14:12.243-04:002009-08-02T23:14:12.243-04:00This comment is a bit cryptic, as the author is no...This comment is a bit cryptic, as the author is not a native English speaker, but decipherable.<br /><br />I agree that God is in the world, but I don't think anyone understands how and in what way God intervenes, or even IF God intervenes. Nor can there be any certainty about right and wrong, truth and untruth. Faith, by definition, implies uncertainty, and those people of faith who lack or minimize their uncertainty are the most dangerous and most spiritually disconnected of all of us.<br /><br />By the way, I have not viewed the YouTube video, and caution all readers to use proper safeguards on the net. I DID go to Krulayar's website, but it is not in English so I can't judge it. Appears to be Malaysian in English script.<br /><br />all the best,<br />SteveAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096593722008505361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-15031609446811999822009-04-09T07:14:00.000-04:002009-04-09T07:14:00.000-04:00I think the problem is just that science does not ...I think the problem is just that science does not only focus on matter. That is, what it can actually make statements about. It tries to apply itself to all aspects of humanity; religious, social, even artistic.<BR/><BR/>"People today believe that scientists are there to instruct them, writers and musicians to entertain them. That the latter have something to teach them never occurs to them." Wittgensteingod-free moralshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16607043107377719807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-75144364225018277852008-10-17T23:10:00.000-04:002008-10-17T23:10:00.000-04:00Dear David,Your kind words make it all worthwhile....Dear David,<BR/>Your kind words make it all worthwhile. And your advice to this linguistic curmudgeon has, I think, penetrated my thick skin. Perhaps I need to write in both languages, and not be so insensitive to the virtues of normspell.<BR/><BR/>Did you see the post of 10/11, <BR/>"Consciousness and personal narratives?" I'd be curious to hear your feedback.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096593722008505361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-66677474261386530902008-10-17T07:45:00.000-04:002008-10-17T07:45:00.000-04:00ah! I only now see that these are older poems --- ...ah! I only now see that these are older poems --- from the eighties. Still, perhaps there is a future in this, & not only a past. Parallel versions of the same poems? Only you can decide it. But these poems do read as if a veil has been lifted --- there is a clarity & immediacy to them that is not to be despised.<BR/>"Diastole. Systole." --- indeed.<BR/>d/David van Dusenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453490546013509008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-26612105770148261612008-10-17T07:42:00.000-04:002008-10-17T07:42:00.000-04:00Stephen, For all my love of your perfectly singula...Stephen, <BR/>For all my love of your perfectly singular & endlessly shifting orthography (is this the word ?) --- I'm pleased to see that you're working now with regularised spelling. It's not the principle of the thing that pleases me --- but simply the clarity it lends your songs. It opens them up --- for lack of a better phrase --- to the weak ones among us. & this is beautiful.<BR/>Peace,<BR/>d/David van Dusenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453490546013509008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-63810092857093555802008-08-30T10:12:00.000-04:002008-08-30T10:12:00.000-04:00& I shd also say this --- I agree with you, St...& I shd also say this --- I agree with you, Steve, that on some level a creedal Christianist is better positioned to understand & to resist radical Islam than is a secularist --- but with this qualification: than a secularist who lacks a strong historical sense. & most secularists do lack a strong historical sense. <BR/><BR/>But I believe that a secularist with a concern for the past, & a recognition of the lines of force from our religious past that still live in us --- a sense for the conflict, the war that was necessary to establish a secular space & a secular peace --- this secularist is better positioned to understand a radical Islamist & a creedal Christianist, than the Islamist or Christianist are to understand themselves. This is true, at very least, in terms of the political sense & future of 'belief'. <BR/><BR/>So I wd argue that the greatest threat to Europe is not the weakening of its religious institutions & the attenuation of its faith, but rather the weakening of its historical sense that is attendant on --- perhaps co-constitutive of --- the modernist project as such, first proclaimed by Francis Bacon.David van Dusenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453490546013509008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-84553135891667504232008-08-30T09:40:00.000-04:002008-08-30T09:40:00.000-04:00I will hazard a post-script to this interchange, i...I will hazard a post-script to this interchange, if I may. Very briefly,<BR/><BR/>(i) 'Europa, Europa' is a powerful song --- a vision, a prophecy. (& if I may say so, your stooping here to conventional spelling has served you well. Served the song.) I have no issue with it, though I would not write it. To my mind, 'propaganda' as a concept or a phenomenon would have to be much more rigorously investigated, to come to any clarity as to the relation --- or separation, if possible --- of 'propaganda' from 'art'. (& I, myself, would not even call this poem 'art'. I have little use for that nineteenth-century concept.)<BR/><BR/>'Ideology' is also a nineteenth-century concept, & 'propaganda' I believe a twentieth-century one. (Though it surely emerges as a phenomenon in at least the nineteenth century.) But what are the specific sociological & philosophical sources for these concepts ? <BR/><BR/>Is the Aeneid propaganda ? is the Aeneid art ? --- or the De rerum natura ? One serves the imperial mythos of Rome, the other Epicurean philosophy. But all these terms (art, propaganda, ideology) seem inappropriate here. <BR/><BR/>They also seem inappropriate with regard to 'Europa, Europa'. <BR/><BR/>(ii) Its scorn for Europe may, however, fall under the condemnation you later lay on Eliot & Pound: 'like an old cistern that is filled with trash' --- is this not a malign ? I think C.G.M. detects this, & reacts to it. You are saying 'you' here, not 'we' --- as you identify or predict or insist on the decay, sinking, overthrow of Europe. & the Muslims here are not even a 'you' --- they are a faceless, shapeless 'they'.<BR/><BR/>(iii) With regard to the future of Europe & the future of Islam, I agree with C.G.M. There is no imminent threat of an Islamic ascendancy. The church --- indeed, all the 'gods', even the strictly imperial 'gods' of Europe --- have suffered a humiliation in Europe since the sixteenth century. It perhaps first became self-evident as precisely this --- a humiliation of the gods, or more precisely, of the pretensions of priests --- in the eighteenth century; but it commences with Luther. I reckon that all the forces that worked this humiliation, & all the methodologies (historical criticism, textual criticism, &c.) that inspired it & arose out of it, will work the same humiliation on, & within, Islam. The imams of radical Islam are the cardinals & Cromwells of seventeenth-century Europe. They should serve us, simply, as reminders of what we ourselves have come from, & come out of. & we --- the 'decadents', the 'seculars', the 'infidels' --- should serve them, simply, as portents of what they will become. <BR/><BR/>I reckon, indeed, that this is so. They recognize, already, their overthrow, their decay, their humiliation in us --- it is this that terrifies them, it is this that drives them to fury.<BR/><BR/>Islam will have its Feuerbach, its Julius Wellhausen, its Nietzsche. ALLAH IS DEAD. Ataturk is the future of the Muslim man --- the first harbinger of this future. Islamic radicalism will survive --- but in the pathetic & peripheral state in which neo-Nazis, white supremacists & such survive in Europe & the United States.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps this sounds naive to you ---- but it is, perhaps, rather profoundly cynical. Regardless, I believe we are not seeing the last stages of the humiliation of secular states, but the first stages of the humiliation of atavistic Islamic states.<BR/><BR/>This is the 'abomination of desolation' that the prophet Muhammed failed to prophesy, to fore-see for his people --- whereas the prophets of Israel & Jesus of Nazareth promised it to theirs. <BR/><BR/>It is this promise that we are living --- the question is, what new promise can arise out if it ? what should we do with the vacant churches, if they are not to become night-clubs or mosques ?<BR/><BR/>The day is coming when the new mosques will also become night-clubs & bars --- I predict it.<BR/><BR/>Regardless, peace!<BR/>d/David van Dusenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453490546013509008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-26655002896537817202008-08-09T10:05:00.000-04:002008-08-09T10:05:00.000-04:00I have a feeling this is a bit like prodding a hor...I have a feeling this is a bit like prodding a hornet's nest, but what exactly do you think that Eliot and Pound 'did'?god-free moralshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16607043107377719807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-79022392000936120922008-08-03T06:54:00.000-04:002008-08-03T06:54:00.000-04:00And I find your response somewhat patronising.Than...And I find your response somewhat patronising.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the history lesson, but I consider those meetings between the 'West' and Islam, I mentioned the crusades as I think it was the Church and the Muslim world meeting in an attempt at individual dominance (both failed). It seems inevitable in how both operate (or did then). <BR/><BR/>If the US is like how the Billings story reports then this shows a better way to relate to each other. I could (i'm sure) find a story like that in Europe. Are you suggesting that only in America than people live without fear? Europe isn't in bits yet, nor does one story (from 1993) mean everything is sorted.<BR/><BR/>You seem to have a very low opinion on how Europe is dealing with Islam (or very much of anything). And what are the facts of this failure? Also, that only post-Holocaust were Jews accepted in Europe. I don't quite know what to make of this. I expect you don't suggest a similar resolution for the current situation.<BR/><BR/>"Europe was, indeed, not ever in danger of a Jewish flood", but that's how it was portrayed on the early 20th century and how the growth of Islam is now being portrayed. I don't think the worldwide growth of Islam shows any cause for concern, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it. To be a multicultural society is about working together after all. http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm<BR/><BR/>There's a difference between the interaction of Europe and Christian-Europe with another religion (which I failed to make explicit). It's the first i'm interested in and the second I worry about.god-free moralshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16607043107377719807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30806480.post-27175935651969772432008-08-03T06:16:00.000-04:002008-08-03T06:16:00.000-04:00Steve, I think you missed my point about propagand...Steve, I think you missed my point about propaganda (state or otherwise). That when it is promotion of ideals as THE answer and only answer then I would call it propaganda. To call all statements of belief, propaganda, is therefore misleading. Only if you believe that your ideals are the only correct ones and everyone else must see it your way, can an expression be considered propaganda. <BR/><BR/>Can multiculturalism be expressed via propaganda? In that it would wish those with extreme views to integrate into society (but not to be dissolved rather become more accepting of others) then perhaps it is an expression of AN answer, but the answer is not ONE way but a multitude.<BR/><BR/>Are you really saying that Allied (which seems to mean the same as American to you) propaganda was successful or 'good' because we won? Isn't this the point that morality shifts, if history had been different we would call the other good.<BR/><BR/>Art-truth-morality, there is a lot to be said here, but i'll be brief and post something myself later. I disagree (not about Keats though, it is a naive expression). When you talk of morality you seem to speak of the Good, of something objective, I conside it to be something subjective, in flux. As for (a) Truth, i'm not sure, I don't think that morality has much to do with it however.god-free moralshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16607043107377719807noreply@blogger.com